In this episode I talk to new friends Laura Perna and Lauren Gerken who work for disability rights in Texas. They've been busy this legislative session and we discuss how they got into their work and what impact they've had on their movement. We all end up connecting through writing and it's positive force in our lives.
Referenced this episode:
Coalition of Texans with Disabilities
Texan Council for Developmental Disabilities
Pen 2 Paper Writing Contest
Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution
Follow me on:
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Support me on Patreon
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In this episode I talk to new friends Laura Perna and Lauren Gerken who work for disability rights in Texas. They've been busy this legislative session and we discuss how they got into their work and what impact they've had on their movement. We all end up connecting through writing and it's positive force in our lives.
Referenced this episode:
Coalition of Texans with Disabilities
Texan Council for Developmental Disabilities
Pen 2 Paper Writing Contest
Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution
Follow me on:
Instagram
Twitter
Support me on Patreon
Facebook
I haven't done it like this before, so, but I really appreciate you lending lending it over so that we can have. Ample time to talk. Yeah. And another thing that we have on here, you had mentioned transcripts. We have an auto. Captioning. Yeah. That produces a transcript. It's not perfect, but it will give you something to start with. I can send that as well. That would be amazing because they charge per minute. When you transcribe. And so I can't really, I don't have a budget to do every episode yet. But that would really, really be helpful. Thank you so much. Convenience. And dance hall. Is that right? Okay. For that. Yeah, no worries. I, I don't think we have the energy to spare to go too far. Past six 30 anyways, but I really appreciate y'all being here. Cool. Okay. So we're recording. Awesome. So, yeah, first, I just wanted to ask you guys how, how y'all are doing right now. Tired. Tired. Have you been working a lot? Yeah. So, I mean, we're in the middle. I'm a.[Unknown] orange. On the. Well, a couple of ones. That we have. Done. So. No. Walk onto the camera walking or non-VA. That means. About Isabella and why? About it right. No. No. So. As a whole. Level. Totally. Yeah. So is your work. Pretty different outside of a legislative session, time and inside of it, or is it kind of mixed? It really ramps up during the session. I see. Yeah. Yeah, like more campaigning or more communicating, more. Yeah, I mean, All of the above. Okay. Yeah. I mean, when. When there's actual. When there is. Actual legislation being you. You know, drafted and supported or attacked. Then you've got to, you know, Rally the troops. There's a big organizing Kim. Component there for sure. So backing up. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.[Unknown] come on. No. And then some time in between. Educating on. Getting them running to that when you're going to do. That con. You have almonds. Ally. And then. And song them, just grandma, the game people. I want to do that long time. And. Do you know about managing pain? You know, my name. You know, an easy I go. So and so a lot of them. Do all work entertaining and then. Sorry. Yeah. So month, one time. That you have. On do. Yeah. So backing up and we'll, we'll talk about how Texas. Texas is weird about its legislative sessions. I'm sure there's other States that do it like we do in order to clog the process. But. Tell tell me about the organization that y'all work for. Cause. Lauren, I'm assuming you also work for, for the same organization? No. Ah, I see. Okay. So enlighten me. Do you want to go first, Lauren? So I asked you before. So I went in for tenders. One developmental. Main news and stay in federal law.[Unknown] they. And. On the, in government born. Where's it headed? People on it. We have a provider. We had that in people and Isabel new diet. And. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering. Grant. Say why. To help as.[Unknown] but on the pond. No, we, we really do. Ordinate when Devo and say, okay. What education means to you on. I have a role so that we can, at some point. So we will. And so while we don't. Bones under since then. You can put comments and said, no. We hope. You can sit. Then disability. And the mantra.[Unknown] of, of them. As much as possible on cam. And we help them. Relationship. In ponds program. Well, not me.[Unknown] teacher. Well, I am CA drafter. Right now. And it's gone well. What is the one who said that.[Unknown] huh? You guys survive. I have. I'm queuing. What is that like? As I'm thinking is that we don't learn. No, I'm fine. Moving Sutton. So only. No Mamba community support. Orange. Is it a really cool spot to be. And we get to want and to all need the meeting. Evolve going forward and do 'em. Yeah, that's amazing. First of all, thank you so much for doing that work because educating people is definitely the first step in, in getting like awareness, especially when, like I said, the legislative session in Texas. For anybody outside of Texas that might be listening. It only happens once every two years for a few months. So they kind of throw everything. There. Everything from anti. Just healthcare in general, which obviously affects disabled people. But also women, people of color, poor people at all, just intersection of, of Texans. So it's important that we get awareness, especially in kind of some places where people just don't hear about this stuff. So I'm assuming that you all met through the work that you do. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. So Laura, where, where do you work and what do you work on? So I'm the communications director for the coalition of Texans with disabilities, whereas small, small to medium size, I guess, disability, advocacy organization. So. Whereas florid and TCD can't directly advocate for against specific bills. That is a large part of our work. And we we're across disability organizations. So. As much as possible. You know, we represent. The interests of people with. You know, Deedee IDD. Mental health conditions, physical impairments. You know, Vision loss, hearing loss. It's not like one specific disability or type of disabilities. So that's. That is interesting and sometimes complicated work. And we also work on. A whole bunch of a whole cross-section of different issues. You know, healthcare already came up. Voting is a big concern of ours right now. But also just like architectural spaces, access to prescriptions, medical cannabis is something that we've been working on the past couple of sessions. Accessible parking special education. And services for children with disabilities. Lots of stuff, lots of stuff for a four person team. Wow. Yeah. Just for people that that is a ton of stuff. So Lauren, what got you into this work? Have you bought less, they're going to be in one Intel. Yeah. So homey. So I've gone up. No. Thanks. Not right away. But I'm good. When they drawn. Who were not a brain too. I'm blinking on my behalf. Average also number had. No. You you go and do it. You got a big mouth. Logging on them. What you need. And I grew up. Marines times. I think a lot. I don't know. And arm's never. You mean, penny? I don't understand why. And then woke up.[Unknown] yeah. Orange. And she's gonna go to college. Orange online. What call Andrea? I'm going to go to. Burned a lot of people. Visibility. Don't go up in that. And room number.com. So. The womb. No. So people like me. But I'm going to make the one around me. The homie. But I know. I'm done the content. I'm fat too. Being era. Token future in writing. We have a unit and then, okay. I'm very cognitive San provisor. When we looked at. Writing to Susan. When did under the villain. She gave me that. And throwing about going on. Well, And then grain. Hold on button a corner. And then. John you've owned them on from camera. And that uncertainty.[Unknown] no. Just not in teaching. And.[Unknown] she went from an afternoon. And now she's like I'm Paloma. Cider and flown back and just said, In the class. Ben said. Knew that no, no. I didn't know. And then people hadn't sent him fine. I need to do something about this.[Unknown] I know you knew.[Unknown] stunning. Matthew. Program. And drive time. Went from there.[Unknown] yeah. Jolene. Movement.[Unknown] in there. And just, but. I didn't learn that anymore. No, when you contract out and stuff. What Avaya. And manga said. So what can I do? And I'm just dying.[Unknown] I have no idea. I'm doing. And that in there. And then go L and. And like, I am not done. No. To me, none.[Unknown] so I'm still here. And I play 'em. I'm working. And field until. I, you know, I'm feeling alive. The young girl. Can you get off my hand on. Okay. Okay. We've gotten, we've gotten somewhere. So. And John's kind of been built in me. Even good way. Awesome. I love hearing that story. That's like such a good personal story. And. I think what you said there is like really resonates with me. And as a big reason why I started the podcast is just like the work isn't done. And like it's. It's crazy to think that. Anybody could think that there's work that has been done? I mean, yes, we've made great progress, but. There's more work to be done and like having the mindset that like, okay, I'm going to keep doing this work until I can't anymore. And also until the next generation can, can pick it up and, and take it on. And I'm going to hand over as many skills as I can to them. Because I want them to succeed. I want them to live in a better world than I do. Now, so I love that. That's amazing. Laura. You are somebody who's not disabled. And that's why I'm really glad you brought some disabled representation to this conversation. And that you brought that up very immediately, but I also really wanted to bring you on to show people that you don't have to be of a subset of people in order to advocate and, and be of service to your community. So tell me about how you got into. This line of work. Well, It's sort of the opposite of Laurens. Entry point, I just kind of fell into it. Just kind of by, you know, a bunch of. Elements of chance kind of coming together. I finished. Grad school and kind of determined that academia was not really the best place for me. And so. You know, kind of got into like, well, what. What can I do? To serve humanity. You know, like real lofty and stuff. And I was interning at a. An early childhood. Like. Policy organization that was in. The building was a bunch of like, non-profits. And like lawyers and stuff. And my boss who was also my friend, who is still my friend. One day, took my resume up to, to CTD, to the coalition. Disabilities. And was like, you should hire. And they didn't immediately. I did a few years as a Vista, as an AmeriCorps Vista. But that turned into. You know, Full-time salaried position. And I feel like. Over the years. And I've been there over 10 years, which is. Bananas. Doing this work has also shaped how I've seen the work. And it shaped who I've become. So I feel very like. Indebted to all of the things that came together that led me to this community. Into this work. I love that. I hope that resonates with some listeners because I feel that way about my, the work that I've done as well as like, I didn't really. Do it initially I did it with that. Like how can I serve humanity? And then somehow on the backend, it's like, Oh, wow. Like if I hadn't done that work, I wouldn't have met these people or this community, or had this profound change or this, you know, re relining of my view of the world. If I hadn't put all these hours into a specific cause or, or organization. So when you're going to activism and say this to the audience, like when you go to activism, go to it with like your personal values first and foremost, because. It's not easy work. And so being able to tie it to something that's like personally valuable to you will help you. I really like. Have that longevity, which I'm aiming to hopefully instill in lots of people like yes, 10 years of activism on. On behalf of a noble cause. But speaking of long careers and activism, I'm not sure how long you've been doing this work, Lauren, but you said, you know, you've had cerebral palsy. Since you were a kid and your parents have always been strong advocates and taught you to be a strong advocate. So in your, you know, long career then, or just life what's, what's been your biggest, like success for folks with disability or something. You've been a part of. I bet. And they're important. And inside. Yeah. But my Indiana. Getting in here. Okay. That I'm in right now. Not knowing that now. Have ads in here. So I think he's always been very important to me personally. Am I. Yeah, I love learning. Mining. Yeah. Is there anything research that. The apps, the mobile too. Everybody. Yeah, I'm found out am.[Unknown] that moment. Is written. Vase a. Yeah. And then paint ones that I've been writing it, always having to tell and stopping her. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Five on a $5, one going C one. Written for net community. And fun. So. So that is really important to me. And just, yeah, I agree. Evergreen that I'm getting. Wow. I'm kidding. Hello. Imposter syndrome. No. Every every time. And so I don't remember. Go. And the advocate. Zone. And Erwin. And then C and you. He has one now. And, you know, not in the oven. But to see the light bulb gone and. My understanding. It's not a Sanford. Mine. Oh, I hadn't thought about that. And in times,[Unknown] back then. So.[Unknown] valuable to me. I have one way.[Unknown] feminism.[Unknown] I got back from the equation. Instead, I were drunk under their arms. Function. The development in that questionnaire. Like a hundred questions on that. My gender and marriage. I'm thinking, Oh my. I do. I know that. And the only reason I know. Is that. Anytime you have taught me to walk. And to me that orange. Yeah. I'm always on.[Unknown] confident. And the, the bill, I mean, but hearing that. Oh, Okay. Talk to you about anything. Does that mean people paying attention? But I'm feeling so. And. And shift in demand. Right. Right. I'm parent and find them. I grew up. I'm thinking. Oh, is that I'm building. Sizeable. And then that has mean. Oh, Thank you now. I haven't gone back. No way. Buttons. You should not have had a long one on. Go for him. More than 10 being seamless. I we run. Be aware. The wrong stance. Melanie. And I went by that. When that. I'm sounds Raul and. Sound's going for every right. Anybody can go on for Ram. Right. And it's not. Only. So, and. As we go on ball. And to see people. Have that. Lincoln. And tonight is one time. And does it run out? It's not exhausting. And just happen. I love that. Yeah. I think that that's like, That's the biggest thing about disability rights activism is how it creates a more accessible world for everybody. And there's just no downside to more rights for human beings. And how. I love that, that you. Just in being yourself and being in an embodying the space that you embody. So in a PhD program or any, any sort of educational program that other kids, other people. With the same disabilities can look up and see like, Oh, there's somebody else. That's like me. Who can do this thing who's smart or who's speaking on this. And then that makes it so much easier for other people to enter. And I think that. Often times at my old job. I used to think about all the time, like, okay, how am I going to be like, The token immigrant woman, like how can I put my stamp on this workplace as being an inclusive workplace? Or like, sometimes I thought about that a lot. And then I came away from that job. Realizing like, Oh, like, Just by being myself and. Existing in the space. I made a difference. Like I didn't have to like, actually think about doing anything like. People might say I was on a soap box too, but I was just like, Oh, I was just talking. You. Veronica. You're always talking about feminism or whatever. I'm like, no, I'm just talking about my life. Like. Because this is just my existence, right? And it's like, Oh, when, when you just exist in a space as your truest, self, you mold and shape that space, regardless of whether you're trying to or not. So I just hope everybody can take that away. Laura 10 years with CTD. I didn't know that before we did this interview. So I'm, I'm impressed. And I would love to know, you know, maybe one or even two, if you have some memorable moments, Of I'm working on legislation in Texas or, or anything. Thanks. So I. I feel like probably my proudest thing. If I did have to whittle it down. Is. The creative writing contest that I. Started doing at CTD. Really early on. Co-coordinating it with another one of my colleagues who is disabled. So. You know, we kind of. It's a two person operation is what I'm getting out. I didn't do this little thing myself. But. We started it. I think. 2009. And. Kept it going for 11 years. Which. Still kind of blows my mind. You look, you look mind blown. Just like, that's awesome. But kind of the idea was. You know, Creative writing. Can. Be advocacy. I feel like more in the way that we've been talking about it. Not as much so legislative, like probably some crossovers, but. So that's why we kind of started it. And it was one of those things where it was like, aye. This is an idea we had. We have a really cool boss. He was like, yeah, you want to try something like you can put CTS name on it. You're doing all the work. Great. So we tried it and it was just like, I don't really like. We don't know what we're doing. We're just gonna like, do our best and see what happens. And. You know, we got a decent response. The first year we got a little more the next year. A little more than the next year and eventually. It got so big that we had to like start charging people to enter because we got more entries than we can read. Which. You know, I think it was important to keep it. Affordable, because something I learned doing it is like, Like, if you want to publish something like a magazine or an anthology, like. Wow. I hope you're not poor. Yeah. So doing that. Has been just like every year. When Susie and I are going through the entries and legs. Selecting finalists and working with judges. It's just like, I am just so like, Overwhelmed. Grateful that like, People from around the world are like, here, here's this piece of my life or my mind, like. I'm sharing it with you. Like. Wow. That's pretty awesome. So, yeah, I think that would be it. And it's called pen to paper, the pen to paper, creative writing contest. I should tell you what it's called. Yeah. Yeah. But it is. I remember, I know. I have a. But. Discovering right. One of them are from monumental moments in my eye. We have. Oh, You jump on right on. And. So crucial. Yeah. And then developed. I'm who I am. So I came out.[Unknown] orange. So. And took Selma. You never end. And the same old game people anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Well, either.[Unknown] and yeah. Figuring out. I. Convenient to say on punishment and I'll have to pay that in. Same time. It's not easy. And I wrote. I'm drying and styling. But entire Andrea. I'm bringing out. That I can be involved in that and don't care. In that. Yeah. Being ball isn't going to imply. To come get into my bag. Just get me me. Shung and. And the only mean. Thank you. And volunteers in general and. And got men topping. Of having. I wasn't the only.[Unknown] sorry. In that, in that in Dawn. How. And everyone can come from college. Sorry. Shoveling when. Their own game.[Unknown] I mean that in science. What an impact that would have on me. I want him to AmTrust. And they're moving her out. The zoning. And [unknown] and the one woman. And, and. And to time solving and then refill, I call going through hell. Oh, my God. Look. It's me and T.E.A, I mean, I'm not in death. But I'm done. Stop. Come on right now. So. Yeah. Found on that. So important. And. Why. No. We're having. Big commerce solution that bleeds endangered in the media. And this is the.[Unknown] locked out and go. That people have. And people want you to be wrong. And we do. But we also need. More people wounded. So. Pen. Pen and paper and then drink that. And so groove on and seeing that yeah. Disabled people make uniform. And we running uniform. And we can make beautiful paintings, Newfoundland Tato. Now on stuff. So that. And then Jolene. Classes at Holly, even one won't be involved. I'm saying we can't. Toon difficult to walk away and there are. Yeah in April. One can do that stuff. So, I mean any, I would. You want that? And if you're not understanding the Eric. And do you own either? Please do want you to do it. And then try and amplify. Sound possible. The media needs. And then how about you? And get you onboard. One Darren doing. Totally. Totally. And thank you for sharing because you know, even now I was just thinking about how, when I was in college, I was the editor of our student run publication. So I kind of related Laura to you saying like, you got so many entries after a while you, you were like, okay, we need to charge. But we didn't charge at school to enter the student run publication. But because I was editor. I realized, like I was able to put more diverse voices or I was able to prioritize putting more diverse voices in the magazine. So of course I put in. My friends. Not that I was like picking anybody over the other. We had a, I went to a very small art school, so pretty much all the entries that entered gut. In the vaccine, but, but I was able to put in some of my friends, you know, some Hispanic people and Asians and what have you. And now looking back, like, I didn't even think to see if any of our entrance were people that were disabled, you know, on top of having whatever other identity they had. And so that's something to think about. And when we're thinking about inclusivity and diversity, it's like we think about it, men and women, we leave out non-binary people. We think about, you know, young and old, we leave out, you know, zoomers and I don't know. Just saying, like, there's always going to be like a gap of who we're missing and oftentimes it's disabled folks. So definitely a call out there to anybody who is in a position of power to edit anything, because. You know that. That job that I did in college that was editing our student run publication. That was a full-time job that I did for free. So. A lot of people do have a big scope or sphere of influence. That they don't pay for that. They just kind of walk into and that's like a good opportunity to, to use our, our inclusivity chops on. Making sure that more people get heard. So that's awesome. All right, let's see. What's next. So just like wrapping up here towards the end. I have a new segment on my second season called s**t. I've learned. And it's just about, you know, the things that I've learned as an activist that, you know, maybe previously I didn't. I wasn't aware of, or I just thought differently about, so Lauren, have you learned anything recently? That's kind of clicked for you. Wow. I mean. I've learned that I hate them. Yeah. I think I've learned. I think we've all learned. And then that kind. Orange. It's completely amazing. Reasonable to add again. Working from home. Yes. Implement. Pond. And then this is all I. And one of Benz vans that he wanted as well. I mean time. I don't drive. I came just to work. So I drive. I mean. I'm going to happen. I know, but I know who will have no con. And now. Federal is wacky Kim parent, you know, and not even if I'm job. And they're the only been that, Oh no, you can't. Can't offer wrong. That's not a reasonable combination. And nine things.[Unknown] that one came from. It's completely doable. And in fact, Some people want from home better than. And during the office. I would love to see. Yeah. Okay.[Unknown] in a memo. Yeah. Working from home. As I can today. Amazing welcoming engine engine, and a pause. Go read them all times. And then I. Well, I'm kind of that pupil. Interpret. There. Who then. But. I mean. And you don't.[Unknown] have kind of a pain when you have an damping chat at all. That doesn't coincide. One 11. Into five, still applied for the job. I'm fine.[Unknown] I can install them. Raul, and then you get punished. Stay. Jean. Did you end up shutting down in the lines? Andrew continued to operate. Yeah. Good. I'm from one from home. And common game gender. Not much God has planned on Pender. But I hope that one on the one on the summit. Absolutely. That might be the best s**t I've learned I've had yet this season. You're totally right. I thought about that last year, too. And how BS is at work cultures? We're not letting people who. Have legitimate, like reasons why it's not just like, I don't want to socialize with the people, which is like, Clearly the, kind of the mindset that people used to have, but yeah, it's just not, it's just not amenable for, for some people. And their lives would be so much better if they could have jobs, but. Do them from home. So I think the whole world knows now, and hopefully we don't go back to any of that BS. Laura, something that you've learned recently. So. Part of our organizing work at CTD is a weekly. Call public call with our advocacy team. Called raise your voice. Our advocacy folks, like kind of talk about like what they've been doing. What. You know, opportunities for taking action are coming up. You know who to call. All the stuff in an hour. And then everybody goes into breakouts and gets to talk to each other about kind of the topic, the most pressing topics of the day. And they're great. And we often have several folks who are visually impaired the screen readers on the call. And last week, one of them emailed me and was like, Hey, I don't know if you know this, but. When I'm calling into a zoom call, my screen reader reads everything that's coming through in the chat box. So if you all are talking and you're also like putting a bunch of stuff in chat, And URLs are the worst. Like. Just be aware. So, I didn't know that. And we're trying to sort of adjust how we use the chat box to make sure that there isn't a whole lot of like, Garbled speech for those folks. And I feel like, you know, that is probably should, everybody should know because obviously zoom is here to stay. In whatever capacity. So. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for, for letting folks know about the screen readers. I will also say that, that just in general, not just for disabled people who maybe can't, who are using different devices, but also for neurodivergent people. This is actually that came up. This came up in one zoom that I was in over the weekend where. Somebody, and it was just so nice of them to feel safe and comfortable in the space to say like, Hey, I'm really sorry. Like I can't read the chat. So I'm. Like I'm talking to you guys, but I I'm so sorry. I don't mean to like, Disregard something that might've been said in the chat. It's just impossible for me to like read the chat and also engage. And I prefer to like, engage. You know, visually and verbally then through the chat. And it's like an obviously vice versa. Like there are some people who don't want to engage visually or verbally, and they do prefer the chat. And I think that it should, we should just encourage a world where people feel comfortable to say what their preferences and for everybody to just be like, cool. While they talk. Maybe we won't type anything. And then, you know, other other way around, maybe there's somebody who doesn't. Want to participate, but they are active in the chat. What I do if I'm hosting a meeting is typically I'll read off their question and make sure that they're like getting included in the conversation. So there's all sorts of different, easy methods that we can use to include people and be aware of our surroundings. And just also just ask people for feedback, obviously, it's just like, Hey, did did this meeting style work for you? Did the. Did the products that, you know, we were using. How was zoom helpful or hurtful today? That might be like a nice little session we include for, for anything. When we're doing organizational work right. But. We came in under time. That's all my questions. Unless y'all have any questions for me or each other or anything else you want to bring up before the end of the call. I really appreciate y'all being here. Thanks. I feel like I've thought so much about this and now I don't know what I want to say. You can send me a link and email. I am going to ask for Lauren to send me the link to his T C D D. Cause I didn't. I didn't have that one. I'll just be putting it in the show notes and yeah. Any, anything else, Lauren? Thank you. I don't know. Well having the nine and say, Oh yeah, I want to say one person. Thank God. And again that I haven't visible in the phone.[Unknown] really important thing. If you haven't seen. They've all. Yeah. And see who's myth. And then. Even then people won't tell you.[Unknown] you know, Put some money on you. Yeah. Well, I have to give credit to Jolene. I brought up Jolene as somebody I work with who is pretty much the president of Lauren's fan club. And I mentioned to our, to our advocacy team, I was going to be doing this podcast and I was like, You know, I can bring somebody from the team on with me, or maybe this is a good opportunity to like bring on one of our partners and Dennis and Chase are like, Oh, what about blah, blah, blah. And Jolene is like Lauren Garcon. Just as, and that was the end of that discussion. I loved it. And Lauren, if you have a Facebook, like I'd love to be friends with you on Facebook and follow your work because I really, I was touched by your story. I love that you're a writer I've only recently in the past year, kind of embraced the fact that I'm a writer too. I think before, I didn't want to like say it cause it wasn't like. General practice. But now I write every day. So I love writing. I love telling my story. I love creating more seats at the table for people like through this podcast specifically, because I want more of our voices to be heard. So. Thank y'all so much. Do you have one more thing? I did want to bring up. On previous episodes. I know that you've mentioned like, Criminal justice and like formerly incarcerated. People in the rights of people in jails and prisons are peer policy fellow. Like that is her. Thing. If that is something you're interested in. Do you want me to connect? I like I'm listening to your podcast and I'm like, man just needs to be on this and be seen. Good. So, is that a something you're interested in? I would love to connect you. Totally. Thank you so much. I kind of knew this moment would come. I was just talking about my earlier interview with my friend. I was just like, this season has been so easy. It's like the people that I need to interview have just been showing up. Like I met Laura at a birthday party on zoom. And so it's, it's just been like, it's just happened so that that's perfect. Cause I've been thinking about the incarceration. Thing. And I'm like, who do I know? I don't know, I'm just going to keep going to meetings and meeting people and eventually they'll pop up. So send me their info. I would love to reach out to them and get to know them. So nice to get to know you Lauren hope we can chat again in the future, and I wish you all the best in your work. Thanks. Same to you. All right, y'all have a good one. Thanks. Bye-bye.